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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 534 for the 13th of

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January 2019 richardsaunders he with you

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coming again once again from the Bay

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Area San Francisco I'm having an

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extended stay in the United States at

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the moment due to well pressing family

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reasons we're working to make sure

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everything is as good as it can be at

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the moment but what a pleasure it is to

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be in the Bay Area one of my favorite

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places in the world coming up on this

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week's show and owing to the fact that

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things are slightly different at the

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moment for me personally a little a

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little shorter this week than normal I

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hope you understand we're gonna kick off

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with a report from Ken Harvey dr. ken

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Harvey one of our favorite people who is

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known as a serial complainer and this is

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all about his complaints to the

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government authorities about ear

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candling oh my goodness me ear candling

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forgive me while my brain goes on

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holiday ear candling is one of the most

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ridiculous forms of alternative medicine

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you have ever seen and this report is an

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overview written by Ken Harvey about his

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complaint to the TGA the Therapeutic

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Goods Administration about this absurd

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form of quackery after that a follow-up

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report from Michelle Franklin our

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reporter in the Northern Territory now

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last week you would have heard her

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report about emus this week she follows

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that up with a report about cane toads

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cane toads are a huge problem in

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Australia in the northern part of

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Australia and there are calls for the

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cane toads to be to be controlled with a

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bounty situation or a bounty solution

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what does Michelle Franklin think about

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this find out later on following that

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and I'm delighted to say following that

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it's our new

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porta Trish Han I've known Trish for

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some years now and she's a marvel she's

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just a wondrous person she's

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professional she has great knowledge

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medical knowledge

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I could wax lyrical about Trish and her

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new segment is called Trish and chips oh

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boy yes let's have some attrition chips

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and well Trish has been a reporter on

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the skeptic zone before but now it's

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official folks he's our new reporter I'm

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gonna update the website soon and she

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jumps in takes over fills in for Maynard

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and I because we both couldn't make

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skeptics in the pub in Sydney and she

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asks the big question this week why are

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the public so cynical about climate

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change or are they find out with Trish

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Hann with Trish and chips then to round

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off the show another report from the

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archives of the skeptic magazine the

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journal from the slain skeptics where we

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look at an article written by doctor

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Richard Gordon many years ago about

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quackery so a bit of a mixed bag on this

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week's a skeptic zone but now it's time

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for me to run upstairs and have

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something I had today for the first time

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some people wouldn't believe it I had a

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peanut butter and jelly sandwich hmm and

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it was pretty good so I might have

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another one of those well I enjoy that I

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hope you enjoy this skeptic zone

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[Music]

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it's a pleasant afternoon here in

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Northern California near San Francisco

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I'm sitting outside to read you a report

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from dr. Ken Harvey now dr. Ken Harvey

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you will remember he's a whale he's

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somewhat of a legend in skeptical

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circles of course for his serial

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complaining now this is a man who puts

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together well-thought-out logical

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methodical complaints about quack

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products sends them to the government

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and it's an invaluable tool that

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skeptics have this complaining you know

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approaching the correct authorities and

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this report comes to us from mid reach

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proprietary limited men reach calm today

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you of course there'll be a link in the

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show notes it's by dr. Ken Harvey and

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it's the old favorite one of the most

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bizarre and outrageous and obvious

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quackery devices modalities I've ever

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come across and that's ear candles here

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candling and the first time I saw that

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this had a mind-body wallet festival in

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Sydney I had to look twice I simply

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could not believe what I was seeing the

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stupidity of it although I mean I do

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realize it's the wrong way to approach

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it because if you call it stupid people

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get instantly offended and they get

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their hackles up and they dig the heels

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in and all those have a great they've

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made imagery anyway it's plainly

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ridiculous I will say and this report

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says ear candles the outcome of the

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Therapeutic Goods Administration

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complaint and for those who want to know

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complaint is the number is AC v TM

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you I why HC / 2018 and this is posted

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on the 6th of January by Ken Harvey ear

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candling is a widely promoted

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alternative medical practice that

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involves inserting and lighting a hollow

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candle in the ear canal and it sounds

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ridiculous

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I'm already wearied on it is claimed

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that ear candling creates a vacuum that

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removes wax and that it can also relieve

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earache glue ear kinases sinus problems

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chronic headache migraine sore throat

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allergies and many more conditions in

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fact ear candles and candling are

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ineffective and dangerous they do not

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remove wax from the ear and they have no

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effect apart from acting as a placebo on

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the numerous conditions they claim the

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treat may have caused injury from burns

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eardrum perforations and secondary ear

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canal infections with temporary hearing

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loss the complaints resolution panel CRP

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upheld 20 complaints about misleading

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claims made for ear candles and referred

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more to the Therapeutic Goods

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Administration or TGA on the grounds

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that regulatory action was required

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Friends of signs in medicine now that's

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another fine outfit of course that we'd

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like to promote Friends of science in

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medicine also raised this matter with

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the TGA may have pointed out that other

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regulators such as the US FDA and Health

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Canada have provided public warnings

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important alerts seizures injunctions

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and warning letters about these matters

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however the TGA refused to act instead

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the TGA advised the government to

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exclude air candles from the therapeutic

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goods framework

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thus abdicating their responsibilities

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in this regard and transferring the

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regulatory responsibilities to the a

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triple see this disregarded the majority

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of public submissions about

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proposal including one from the a Triple

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C that opposed this change from 1 July

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2018 the CRP was abolished and the TGA

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became responsible for all complaints

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about the advertising of therapeutic

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goods at this time ear candles had not

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yet been added to the therapeutics goods

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excluded goods order number one from

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2011 on 24 July 2018 a portfolio of 104

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complaints about the promotion of ear

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candles was submitted to the TGA on 21

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September 2018 the TGA finalized this

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complaint by stating that they had sent

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an educational letter to all the

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identified advertisers hmm this also

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said that the outcome of this complaint

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would not be published on the

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advertising complaints outcomes the

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reason given was that ear candles were

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expected to be excluded from the

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therapeutic goods regulatory framework

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before the end of 2018

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on 1 October 2018 the TGA made a new

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determination under Section 7 a a of the

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therapeutics Goods Act in 1989 excluding

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ear candles from the TGA x' jurisdiction

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these products and now the

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responsibility of the a triple C this is

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quite a long and convoluted story we

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read on I have now assessed the impact

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of the TGA x' quote educational letter

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and quote almost six months after making

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my complaint 51 or 49 percent of the 104

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advertiser web sites were unchanged 12

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or 12 percent have removed some claims

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and 41 39 percent have removed all the

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claims i alleged breach the therapeutics

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goods advertising code

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maybe that's Ken Harvey now in that

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airplane flying above me we read on thus

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61 of the websites complained about

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continue to make misleading and

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deceptive claims which I allege brief

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both the therapeutics goods

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advertising code and Australian Consumer

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Law the critique by Commissioner Haynes

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on the regulator's of the financial

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services industry is equally applicable

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to the TGA and the a triple C a failure

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to enforce the law undermines the

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authority of the regulator whose

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fundamental responsibility is to do just

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that it also encourages others to break

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the law leading to a race to the bottom

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further action is required

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given the TJ's abdication of their

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responsibilities I have now written to

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the a Triple C requesting that they

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publish a warning to consumers about

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misleading and deceptive therapeutics

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claims made about ear candles on their

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scam watch website and as an aside

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that's a good site to check out folks

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scam watch and there is a link on this

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page to scam watch when you read on I

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have also suggested they send this

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information to those organizations whose

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members are mainly responsible for these

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advertisements in addition the a triple

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C should consider pursuing an

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illustrative court case against a large

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company such as chemists warehouse who

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continue to make misleading claims about

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ear candles despite having received the

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TG A's quote educational letter main

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and I note that there's a comment on

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this page from mal Vickers a well-known

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Victorian skeptic and Mao says Us

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website has some excellent information

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on ear candling they state there are no

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known therapeutic benefits for any

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candles and there are risks to consider

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part of dripping wax is an obvious burn

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risk however quack watch also mentions

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two instances of house fires linked to

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ear candles one of which resulted in

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death and you can read that for yourself

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pal and linked in this week's of show

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notes and while you're there you can

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[Music]

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calling all skeptics or listeners do you

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live end or near high school are you

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planning to visit sometime then you're

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in luck because the Glasgow skeptics

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have got your Monday nights sorted we

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are committed to filling up every

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available Monday night talks on science

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and skepticism past speakers include

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Eugenie Scott Jerry Coyne make up

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Marshall Nate Phelps Tom and Cecil from

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cognitive dissonance PZ Myers Richard

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Wiseman EC grilling noir Heath and Eli

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from the scathing atheist Simon Singh

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Rebecca Watson and a multitude of local

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academics and skeptics there's literally

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nothing better you can do on a Monday in

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Glasgow

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it doesn't involve taking your clothes

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off so come join us we've also got a

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vibrant online community you can find us

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on Facebook Twitter and get involved

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with the discussion glasgow skeptics

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[Music]

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life is wild with Michelle Franklin

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[Music]

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hi guys I just wanted to do a quick

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follow-up from my last report about the

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EMU war and all the bad decisions that

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happen when non ecologist try to do

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ecology same thing goes for politicians

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and recently people following the news

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in Australia may have noticed a certain

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politician who has a history of speaking

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out against people who aren't from here

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and now she's getting rather excited

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about her new plan to defend the country

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from animals that aren't from here but

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she's not talking about funding research

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or introducing better management policy

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it's much more fun than that she wants

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to have a cane toad muster and put a

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10-cent bounty on their heads for those

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who aren't familiar cane toads are a

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highly visible fast breeding invasive

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amphibian and they're not considered to

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be attractive by most people they're

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poisonous and they eat a lot and they're

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generally not good to have around they

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were introduced deliberately about 80

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years ago and they're spreading across

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the country and nothing so far seems to

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be able to stop them but the reason I

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bring them up today is because this

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politician has announced that she wants

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to get rid of them

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which is great but instead of focusing

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on the real research and progress that's

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happening in this area she just wants to

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go for the quick fix and pay people to

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go out there and get them it's great

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that she's enthusiastic about helping

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the situation but when people try to

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make changes to an animal population

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based on their complete lack of

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understanding it's not only wrong it's

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insulting for time immemorial scientists

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have been asking for funding to study

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various problems but instead of

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contributing to the actual useful

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knowledge and advancements some people

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think that they'll just bypass that

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process and just act on their own and

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use their own ideas instead it's the

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dunning-kruger effect where people watch

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one documentary or read one story about

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a problem and they feel like they're an

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expert and that they can solve the

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problem with their own ingenious ideas

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first of all no you won't second of all

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did you even google it before speaking

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cane toad musters have been done before

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repeatedly on a very large scale

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and we didn't have to pay people to do

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it they do it voluntarily all the time I

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remember doing it as a kid and so does

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Richard Saunders and I bet most

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Australians have been out there catching

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cane toads at some point in their past

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people still do it today and it doesn't

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work for years as the cane toad moved

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across the north of Australia we had

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extremely well-funded community groups

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that had all the equipment and resources

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necessary and they were going out in

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force to collect toads and they weren't

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just picking them up from around their

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houses or at the front of the pub and

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dropping them into the council which is

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what's been suggested in the media of

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late they were taking four-wheel drives

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and ATVs and heading out into remote

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areas and targeting large-scale

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collection efforts on specific targets

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and they collected a lot of toads and

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guess what they didn't catch them all

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they didn't reduce the population by any

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significant amount they didn't even slow

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down the invasion front this has been

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studied extensively and we have the

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evidence that shows that it just doesn't

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work at best these cane toad musters

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temporarily reduced the populations in

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small targeted areas and they drum up a

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bit of enthusiasm in the community for

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volunteering and helping the environment

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but it's an extremely high labor

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intensive activity with minimal payoff

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and the reason for these program fails

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and the reason that nobody bothers to

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suggest cane toad bounties anymore is

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because that's not how cane toad biology

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works placing bounties on some animals

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has succeeded in the past and with other

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animals it's failed it's really not as

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simple as just paying people to catch

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the animals that you don't want there's

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a very fine line between a culling

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program and a conservation program and

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paying people to collect and kill

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animals is also a well-known and well

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used principle in conservation

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it's called sustainable use you make an

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animal financially valuable to the

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people who control its habitat and those

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people will in turn to conserve it

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because it's valuable crocodiles are the

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perfect example of this their eggs are

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valuable because farms buy them to make

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leather they're for people who are in a

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land that's covered in crocodiles now

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value them and protect them rather than

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shooting them out and running cattle on

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their land instead for other animals

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bounties can be very successful take the

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thylacine for example sometimes called

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the tasmanian tiger although it's not a

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tiger and it's not only from tasmania

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thylacine x' breed slowly they invest a

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lot of energy in each baby and when you

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put a bounty on their heads they got

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wiped out that's not what's going to

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happen with toads when you walk around

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looking for toads to pick up you pretty

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much find all males they're brightly

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colored loud and they hop around out in

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the open

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females on the other hand are more

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reclusive they mostly sit in the water

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where people don't tend to go and they

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don't make a sound

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now the females are the ones that lay

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the eggs and it only takes one now to

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fertilize them all but even if you could

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catch 95% of them it wouldn't help cane

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toads are cannibals and they're also

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prolific breeders which means that the

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population is self-limiting each female

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lays up to 30,000 eggs and those eggs

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compete with each other

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toad tadpoles will eat toad eggs and

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young adult toads will eat baby toads

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and each piece of habitat has a set

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carrying capacity for toads and their

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ability to breed is significantly higher

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than the carrying capacity for that

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habitat so it doesn't matter if there

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are 50 females in the area or if there

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are two the same number of babies will

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be recruited into the next generation

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yes there are some situations where

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mounties work amuse and thylacines are

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the good example of that but the method

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of control for an animal depends so much

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on the biology of that animal and the

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ecology of the whole system we have

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experts who are all too willing to help

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and this is the thing that grates me the

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most about this situation it's not

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difficult to find out to know the

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in-depth biology of the cane toad versus

446
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the EMU verse at the crocodile vs isla

447
00:21:23,070 --> 00:21:20,230
scene and to know when a bounty would

448
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:23,080
help the situation and when putting a

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00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:24,400
value on them would actually increase

450
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the population but I would expect

451
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that a person who claims to have the

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answer would at least look into it and

453
00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:33,650
find out what's been tried and asked if

454
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:35,420
you experts what they think before

455
00:21:41,230 --> 00:21:37,610
making a dumbass suggestion that's never

456
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going to work oh and also if this

457
00:21:45,010 --> 00:21:43,430
particular politician is gonna try to be

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an environmentalist all of a sudden

459
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,450
she'd go a long way to just accept that

460
00:21:51,070 --> 00:21:49,520
climate change is real and stop getting

461
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:51,080
in the way of the people who are trying

462
00:21:59,280 --> 00:21:53,250
to do something about it

463
00:22:04,810 --> 00:22:02,470
greetings listeners it's me Captain

464
00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:04,820
disillusion on my youtube channel called

465
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:07,460
captain of dissolution aye captain

466
00:22:11,740 --> 00:22:09,710
disillusion analyzed viral videos of the

467
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:11,750
strange and unbelievable I explained how

468
00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:14,240
interframe video compression 3d motion

469
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:16,220
tracking and stock the effects elements

470
00:22:20,830 --> 00:22:18,290
proved that Justin Bieber is not a

471
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:20,840
secret reptilian alien that those videos

472
00:22:24,850 --> 00:22:22,850
of ghost cars are just unintentional

473
00:22:26,590 --> 00:22:24,860
optical illusions and that lightning did

474
00:22:28,420 --> 00:22:26,600
not strike a few feet away from a girl

475
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:28,430
on a beach as we saw in the news I'm

476
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:31,130
real fun at parties my best friend is a

477
00:22:36,910 --> 00:22:34,970
lens flare disillusion I dunno other

478
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:36,920
people sometimes they even show up in my

479
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:39,530
videos people like skepticisms grandpa

480
00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:41,510
James Randi serve de Soleil Acrobat

481
00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:44,390
Erica Lin's weight loss enthusiast Penn

482
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:46,550
Jillette and the actual Beekman from

483
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:48,650
Beakman's world I hope you'll check out

484
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:50,690
my adventures interact with me in a

485
00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:52,850
platonic way and even consider becoming

486
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:55,670
a patron of my work you can do all that

487
00:23:06,560 --> 00:22:58,250
and more on YouTube or at Captain

488
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:15,960
hmm let's have some Trish and chips is

489
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:24,580
Trish Han so I'm here at Sydney's

490
00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:26,500
skeptics in the pub standing in for

491
00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:29,590
Richard and or may not and I'm gonna be

492
00:23:33,890 --> 00:23:31,120
asking the question tonight and that

493
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:33,900
question is why is there such cynicism

494
00:23:38,970 --> 00:23:36,310
towards climate change amongst the

495
00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:38,980
general public let's see how things go

496
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:40,780
with me taking over temporarily for

497
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:43,120
tonight so I'm here with the legendary

498
00:23:49,230 --> 00:23:44,830
Tim Mendham I exist

499
00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:49,240
I know so Tim what do you think of the

500
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:52,900
question why are people so hesitant or

501
00:23:57,450 --> 00:23:55,090
cynical about climate change amongst the

502
00:23:59,370 --> 00:23:57,460
general public well I think it's a

503
00:24:00,840 --> 00:23:59,380
mistaken question actually I think most

504
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:00,850
people are actually not cynical either

505
00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:02,710
from what I understand from the polls

506
00:24:07,020 --> 00:24:04,590
etc and certainly from talking to people

507
00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:07,030
let's go beyond skeptical circles but in

508
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,980
general public I think most people agree

509
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:11,200
that there is an issue with climate

510
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:14,610
change with anthropogenic global warming

511
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:17,110
etc right that people do accept that

512
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,330
it's happening and they want something

513
00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:21,600
to be done right I mean the fact that

514
00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:23,860
there's a number of politicians and

515
00:24:26,610 --> 00:24:25,630
shock jocks and people like that who are

516
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:26,620
making a loud noise

517
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:29,650
I think beyond their numbers basically

518
00:24:34,350 --> 00:24:31,570
so I would say while people might be

519
00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:34,360
confused and certainly you get into the

520
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:36,160
you don't have to get very far e to the

521
00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:38,320
scientific details to get confused it's

522
00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:40,300
well beyond the the can of those people

523
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:41,920
but the thing to ask

524
00:24:45,860 --> 00:24:43,170
as far as

525
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:45,870
farmers all of them agree that this is

526
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:47,880
happening and then it's an issue because

527
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:49,530
that's being they saying and absolutely

528
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:50,880
then they're seeing over the last twenty

529
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:53,010
years and they're not known to be a sort

530
00:24:57,620 --> 00:24:55,350
of lefties act of has set cetera because

531
00:24:59,660 --> 00:24:57,630
I point that but I think you know that's

532
00:25:00,920 --> 00:24:59,670
what I see all the time and I've seen

533
00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:00,930
some of the evidence a lot of the

534
00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:03,030
evidence a lot of the time being on the

535
00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:05,910
front line being legendary that that are

536
00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:07,140
people who approached me all the time

537
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:08,760
but with their theories and with their

538
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:12,210
criticisms amongst the skeptics advanced

539
00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:14,700
majority skeptics accept that climate

540
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:15,960
change is an issue is happening and

541
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,290
something needs to be done vast majority

542
00:25:22,220 --> 00:25:20,640
but there are always a number of fairly

543
00:25:23,870 --> 00:25:22,230
loud people and people who claim

544
00:25:26,060 --> 00:25:23,880
scientific expertise and some of them

545
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:26,070
have it right who put forward theories

546
00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:29,250
and lists and the and criticize the

547
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:32,280
suppose at 97% of scientists or

548
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:33,750
climatologist who accept that it's

549
00:25:36,050 --> 00:25:35,220
happening and so there are a lot of

550
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:36,060
others who don't

551
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:38,220
here's one in particular I got a list

552
00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:40,170
centimeters recently and it's referred

553
00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:42,120
to many many times in anti climate

554
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:43,430
change because you have three hundred

555
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:46,770
very well-known noted scientists who

556
00:25:51,050 --> 00:25:48,600
were saith rubbish and you go through

557
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:51,060
the list it's not hard to do you realize

558
00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:52,530
that most of them are not climatologist

559
00:25:56,990 --> 00:25:55,860
in fact very few a climatologist and

560
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:57,000
that a lot of them don't have any

561
00:26:02,180 --> 00:25:59,880
qualifications or any listed background

562
00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:02,190
or credentials of any sort and amongst

563
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:04,200
thing is at least one creationist amazed

564
00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:06,510
the creationist foundation even though

565
00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:08,580
it just surprises me that this list is

566
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:09,780
being quoted by people that have

567
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:11,130
scientific bent or even worse or

568
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:13,230
skeptical been now I'm sure there's a

569
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:14,790
lot of genuine people out there who had

570
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,160
concerns about the climate change theory

571
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:19,440
who object to it and there's obviously a

572
00:26:23,270 --> 00:26:21,330
lot of political issues in there a lot

573
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:23,280
of economic issues a lot of economic

574
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:27,270
philosophy and frankly free market as

575
00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:28,770
opposed to interventionist sort of

576
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:29,940
activities that sort of thing

577
00:26:34,010 --> 00:26:32,000
climate change is a very interventionist

578
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:34,020
situation a lot of people just object to

579
00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:36,000
that on principle that's their that's

580
00:26:40,790 --> 00:26:38,430
their option of course but at the same

581
00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:40,800
time you can't the science is not open

582
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:42,760
to a political debate

583
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:46,570
yeah I completely agree thank you oh and

584
00:26:50,190 --> 00:26:48,580
look who's just walking in I believe

585
00:26:52,049 --> 00:26:50,200
that might be just like a singer on the

586
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:52,059
horizon it is I yes

587
00:26:56,610 --> 00:26:55,120
so the toilets question is why do you

588
00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:56,620
think there's a hesitancy or cynicism

589
00:27:00,659 --> 00:26:58,690
around accepting the climate change

590
00:27:04,169 --> 00:27:00,669
amongst the general public well my

591
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:04,179
counter question would be is there is

592
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:06,250
there we're constantly being told

593
00:27:10,919 --> 00:27:08,410
there's a cynicism and nobody believes

594
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:10,929
it but the people who are telling us

595
00:27:19,049 --> 00:27:15,610
that the revered climate change deniers

596
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:19,059
so are they peddling their own agenda is

597
00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:22,320
it true drinking their own kool-aid yeah

598
00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:25,990
interesting okay and would you like to

599
00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:29,590
answer that question um why is there

600
00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:32,860
cynicism and what was the question again

601
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:36,190
I think the question being you know are

602
00:27:41,580 --> 00:27:39,250
there is there a cynicism at all Soji oh

603
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:41,590
look I certainly I certainly think some

604
00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:43,690
people denied I have a colleague at work

605
00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:50,049
who is an avid denier and I just have to

606
00:27:56,399 --> 00:27:53,470
walk away but

607
00:27:59,899 --> 00:27:56,409
most of the people I know and I don't

608
00:28:03,690 --> 00:27:59,909
think it's just my own echo-chamber

609
00:28:05,940 --> 00:28:03,700
most people I know think that yes

610
00:28:07,740 --> 00:28:05,950
and troponin and tropical i'mot change

611
00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:07,750
is happening

612
00:28:13,019 --> 00:28:11,289
I met my cousin who comes from Victoria

613
00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:13,029
and she grew up in the country for lunch

614
00:28:21,149 --> 00:28:15,940
today and she's driven up from Victoria

615
00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:21,159
to to Sydney through the bush and she

616
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:26,740
says it's changed yeah things are

617
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:28,840
different and yeah look at the Murray

618
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:30,490
dirt or look look what's happening with

619
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:31,570
the Murray Darling Basin

620
00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:33,190
look what's happening with the bushfire

621
00:28:38,730 --> 00:28:36,190
season looks look what the wine growers

622
00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:38,740
are saying about the temperature changes

623
00:28:42,869 --> 00:28:40,870
and how it's affecting their the the

624
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:42,879
crops and the varieties that they can

625
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:46,710
grow I mean there's all this information

626
00:28:52,259 --> 00:28:49,600
and evidence out there pointing pointing

627
00:28:59,759 --> 00:28:52,269
that way absolutely all right Jessica

628
00:29:00,379 --> 00:28:59,769
shrugs what are your thoughts on the

629
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:00,389
subject

630
00:29:08,909 --> 00:29:05,230
well you can't trust anyone whose income

631
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:08,919
depends on furthering a particular point

632
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:17,160
so who are you mentioning that whose

633
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:19,870
income I mean there's many people mainly

634
00:29:27,230 --> 00:29:24,130
people on many sides on many sides it's

635
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:27,240
a hexagon of basically just scientists

636
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:33,850
summoning funding from the walk of the

637
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:43,210
earth sorry Richard I have no idea what

638
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:44,170
that was about

639
00:29:49,290 --> 00:29:47,110
okay so I'm sitting with Gideon who is

640
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:49,300
an epidemiologist I understand that's a

641
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:52,210
fact yeah what are your thoughts on

642
00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:54,490
tonight's question I my thoughts are

643
00:29:59,550 --> 00:29:56,680
that most people are hesitant to accept

644
00:30:01,530 --> 00:29:59,560
climate change because it is more

645
00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:01,540
convenient to not accept climate change

646
00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:06,460
it is more expensive to go green and it

647
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:10,150
is more difficult and we all like to

648
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:11,920
believe things are easy even when they

649
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:15,070
rarely are okay fair enough so kind of a

650
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:18,120
libertarian angle sort of thing yeah

651
00:30:21,870 --> 00:30:19,840
libertarianism and just the general

652
00:30:27,030 --> 00:30:21,880
blindness we all have towards things

653
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:27,040
that we don't want to hear so Richard

654
00:30:30,750 --> 00:30:28,570
tonight's question should actually be

655
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:30,760
wire skeptics and the pub goers so

656
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:32,890
hesitant to talk to me when I hold a

657
00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:34,630
picture of you in front of their face

658
00:30:39,780 --> 00:30:36,700
and thrust my phone's microphone under

659
00:30:42,540 --> 00:30:39,790
their nose Who am I talking to it's Ben

660
00:30:44,409 --> 00:30:42,550
McEvoy here and so the question is why

661
00:30:46,749 --> 00:30:44,419
is the general public so hesitant

662
00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:46,759
except climate change because I can't

663
00:30:52,910 --> 00:30:49,560
believe it's got holiday

664
00:31:09,450 --> 00:30:58,770
[Music]

665
00:31:11,390 --> 00:31:09,460
hi this is Heidi Robertson from the

666
00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:11,400
Northern Rivers vaccination supporters

667
00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:14,280
we are a group of concerned citizens

668
00:31:19,470 --> 00:31:16,900
dedicated to promoting good science and

669
00:31:22,590 --> 00:31:19,480
common sense in our region the far north

670
00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:22,600
coast of New South Wales this area are

671
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:24,160
famous for its natural beauty and

672
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:27,490
relaxed lifestyle also has the lowest

673
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:30,850
rates of vaccination in Australia we are

674
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:33,130
out to change that by challenging the

675
00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:35,470
myths and misinformation and by

676
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:37,150
providing good evidence-based

677
00:31:42,299 --> 00:31:40,480
information to the community we'd love

678
00:31:45,930 --> 00:31:42,309
for you no matter where you are in the

679
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:45,940
world to join our fight please visit our

680
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:53,770
webpage at WWF info we also have a link

681
00:31:59,460 --> 00:31:56,799
there to our Facebook page tweet us at

682
00:32:02,669 --> 00:31:59,470
in our FAQs supporters

683
00:32:04,909 --> 00:32:02,679
that's vix and check us out on Wikipedia

684
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:04,919
by searching for Northern Rivers

685
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:27,610
[Music]

686
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,480
from the pages of the skeptic magazine

687
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:32,640
in the journal from Australian skeptics

688
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:40,730
this is a winter 1988 or vol 8 number 2

689
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:44,580
turning to page 27 under the title of

690
00:32:57,170 --> 00:32:48,330
alternative medicine quackery by Richard

691
00:33:01,790 --> 00:32:57,180
Gordon the first charlatan was made when

692
00:33:04,250 --> 00:33:01,800
the first knave met the first fool there

693
00:33:07,670 --> 00:33:04,260
are four interesting questions to pose

694
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:07,680
concerning quackery one

695
00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:11,640
what is quackery - why do quack remedies

696
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:15,420
seem to work 3 why do people go to

697
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:20,330
quacks 4 what is the harm in quackery

698
00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:24,510
what is quackery a quack as a person who

699
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:27,540
deliberately misrepresents himself as

700
00:33:34,610 --> 00:33:30,450
possessing medical or other healing

701
00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:34,620
skills which he lacks a quick remedy is

702
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,470
one which is promised to offer a cure

703
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:39,840
although there is no scientific evidence

704
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:43,320
for this claim the term quack originally

705
00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:46,970
meant quote to prattle or brag unquote

706
00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:49,980
quackery thrives in alternative medicine

707
00:33:56,750 --> 00:33:53,340
and is also present in Orthodox medicine

708
00:33:59,500 --> 00:33:56,760
in Orthodox medicine the cynical use of

709
00:34:01,970 --> 00:33:59,510
placebos is an example of quackery

710
00:34:04,550 --> 00:34:01,980
vitamins are a popular vehicle for

711
00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:04,560
quackery while vitamins are necessary

712
00:34:11,630 --> 00:34:08,070
for good health and excess dose does not

713
00:34:13,910 --> 00:34:11,640
quote stimulate end quote the system to

714
00:34:16,670 --> 00:34:13,920
greater heights nor can in excess

715
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:16,680
increase the sense of well-being the

716
00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:19,020
reasoning that says quote if a little is

717
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:21,420
good then large amounts must be better

718
00:34:27,620 --> 00:34:24,690
in quote is clearly flawed as food and

719
00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:27,630
alcohol so easily illustrate quacks

720
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:30,300
often mix good advice with

721
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:33,570
totally unfounded claims chiropractic is

722
00:34:38,660 --> 00:34:36,570
a good example of this mixture on one

723
00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:38,670
hand it uses spinal manipulation to

724
00:34:42,860 --> 00:34:41,070
treat muscular disorders and on the

725
00:34:45,140 --> 00:34:42,870
other hand we do use a spinal

726
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:45,150
manipulation to treat asthma

727
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:48,510
why do quack remedy seem to work the

728
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:50,790
reasons for the apparent success of

729
00:34:57,350 --> 00:34:54,330
quack remedies are a the patient's

730
00:34:59,900 --> 00:34:57,360
belief that the Cure work often coupled

731
00:35:04,550 --> 00:34:59,910
with the financial commitment and a

732
00:35:07,250 --> 00:35:04,560
desire not to feel cheated be the power

733
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:07,260
of the quacks personality many famous

734
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:10,530
quacks were and are outstanding showman

735
00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:13,740
many have paranoid delusional beliefs in

736
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:16,200
their own powers a case of the psychotic

737
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:20,160
leading the neurotic see spontaneous

738
00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:23,160
recovery which characterizes most minor

739
00:35:30,170 --> 00:35:26,700
illnesses many major illnesses and a few

740
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:30,180
very serious illnesses such as cancer in

741
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:32,850
the last case spontaneous remission

742
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:37,010
occurs rarely probably in one in every

743
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:40,770
70,000 untreated cases most cracks add

744
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:43,290
what is basically good advice on diet

745
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:47,250
exercise etc to their quack remedies it

746
00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:49,740
is the good advice if anything that

747
00:35:55,220 --> 00:35:52,980
benefits the patient but it is often the

748
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:55,230
quack remedy that carries the mystique

749
00:36:01,100 --> 00:35:58,890
and receives the credit when a person

750
00:36:03,950 --> 00:36:01,110
feels better after using a quack remedy

751
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:03,960
the cure can have two explanations

752
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:07,530
either the remedy exerts a real effect

753
00:36:12,530 --> 00:36:10,200
or it exerts what is known as the

754
00:36:15,650 --> 00:36:12,540
placebo effect if the effect is real

755
00:36:18,530 --> 00:36:15,660
then it will be possible to reliably

756
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:18,540
demonstrate this effect to unbiased

757
00:36:24,770 --> 00:36:22,410
observers if the effect is a placebo it

758
00:36:28,010 --> 00:36:24,780
can be explained by the patient's desire

759
00:36:31,130 --> 00:36:28,020
to believe in the cure the word placebo

760
00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:31,140
is Latin meaning I shall be pleasing in

761
00:36:36,860 --> 00:36:33,960
certain conditions such as arthritis and

762
00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:36,870
gastritis over 50% of sufferers may

763
00:36:42,740 --> 00:36:39,540
report improvement when given quack

764
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:42,750
remedies the best placebos are

765
00:36:46,309 --> 00:36:43,890
substances such

766
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:46,319
as vitamins or antibiotics because

767
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:48,930
people know that they can have genuine

768
00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:50,640
value in treating certain health

769
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:53,609
problems every doctor will be familiar

770
00:36:58,339 --> 00:36:55,890
with the fact that many patients will

771
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:58,349
report immediate improvement with

772
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:01,200
antibiotic treatment even though a real

773
00:37:06,980 --> 00:37:03,930
effect on the infection could not have

774
00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:06,990
occurred so quickly it is obviously

775
00:37:13,279 --> 00:37:09,630
important to know whether a drug is

776
00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:13,289
exerting a real or placebo effect or a

777
00:37:19,299 --> 00:37:16,680
mixture of the two this is why placebos

778
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:19,309
are used in evaluation of new drugs

779
00:37:24,349 --> 00:37:22,049
during the evaluation one group of

780
00:37:26,539 --> 00:37:24,359
subjects is treated with a real drug and

781
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:26,549
the other group is treated with a

782
00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:27,359
placebo

783
00:37:32,539 --> 00:37:30,089
making sure that both types of drug look

784
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:32,549
and taste the same it is then usual to

785
00:37:37,759 --> 00:37:35,190
swap the real and placebo drugs for the

786
00:37:39,980 --> 00:37:37,769
second half of the evaluation in this

787
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:39,990
way it is possible to make allowances

788
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:43,680
for any recibo effect why do people go

789
00:37:49,089 --> 00:37:46,650
to quacks ill-defined

790
00:37:52,609 --> 00:37:49,099
symptoms such as chronic tiredness

791
00:37:55,609 --> 00:37:52,619
headaches depression and vague pains are

792
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:55,619
extremely common they may result from

793
00:38:01,549 --> 00:37:58,890
worry overworked and poor relationships

794
00:38:04,249 --> 00:38:01,559
with others people often hesitate to

795
00:38:07,849 --> 00:38:04,259
take such problem to doctors but quacks

796
00:38:11,029 --> 00:38:07,859
can trade heavily on these quote trivial

797
00:38:13,819 --> 00:38:11,039
and quote complaints because these

798
00:38:16,549 --> 00:38:13,829
symptoms can be an expression of

799
00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:16,559
problems that are difficult to solve it

800
00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:18,839
is much easier to focus on bogus

801
00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:22,140
diagnosis and follow mysterious cures

802
00:38:28,849 --> 00:38:26,190
than to face the real issues when people

803
00:38:31,819 --> 00:38:28,859
do take ill-defined symptoms to doctors

804
00:38:35,089 --> 00:38:31,829
they are understandably dissatisfied

805
00:38:38,359 --> 00:38:35,099
when the doctor merely excludes serious

806
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:38,369
illnesses and reassures them that there

807
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:40,950
is nothing serious to worry about the

808
00:38:45,529 --> 00:38:42,930
patient still has the problem and may

809
00:38:48,289 --> 00:38:45,539
continue to look for an explanation and

810
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:48,299
some relief this narrow perspective

811
00:38:54,109 --> 00:38:51,390
called the quote medical model and quota

812
00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:54,119
of illness is an important failing of

813
00:38:57,499 --> 00:38:56,430
the medical profession quacks often

814
00:39:01,309 --> 00:38:57,509
trade under this

815
00:39:04,569 --> 00:39:01,319
play of caring which contrasts with the

816
00:39:07,399 --> 00:39:04,579
more detached behavior of some doctors

817
00:39:10,279 --> 00:39:07,409
patients who face a diagnosis of illness

818
00:39:14,329 --> 00:39:10,289
such as cancer or AIDS which may be

819
00:39:16,939 --> 00:39:14,339
incurable and/or terminal can turn away

820
00:39:20,359 --> 00:39:16,949
from Orthodox medicine in the desperate

821
00:39:23,139 --> 00:39:20,369
hope of a cure some people are attracted

822
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:23,149
by the mystical approach such as

823
00:39:30,379 --> 00:39:25,859
astrological diagnosis hair analysis

824
00:39:32,419 --> 00:39:30,389
iridology or pyramid power laymen have

825
00:39:34,849 --> 00:39:32,429
difficulty in distinguishing between

826
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:34,859
obtuse language in Orthodox medicine and

827
00:39:41,870 --> 00:39:37,249
obtuse language in alternative medicine

828
00:39:43,939 --> 00:39:41,880
what is the harm in quackery many

829
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:43,949
alternative approaches seem harmless

830
00:39:51,499 --> 00:39:48,209
enough but the dangers are a the

831
00:39:55,959 --> 00:39:51,509
possibility of delaying diagnosis of

832
00:39:59,689 --> 00:39:55,969
serious disease B the possibility of

833
00:40:04,159 --> 00:39:59,699
interfering with effective treatment C

834
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:04,169
the likely cost both of the quack cure

835
00:40:11,809 --> 00:40:07,649
itself and the delayed treatment with

836
00:40:12,259 --> 00:40:11,819
Orthodox cures D the raising of false

837
00:40:14,569 --> 00:40:12,269
hopes

838
00:40:16,999 --> 00:40:14,579
especially when an individual is in the

839
00:40:20,659 --> 00:40:17,009
process of coming to terms with a

840
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:20,669
serious illness E the possibility that

841
00:40:27,139 --> 00:40:22,880
some crack cures are actually harmful

842
00:40:31,279 --> 00:40:27,149
laetrile contains cyanide vitamins A and

843
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:31,289
D can be toxic in high doses it should

844
00:40:35,179 --> 00:40:32,880
not be forgotten that alternative

845
00:40:37,370 --> 00:40:35,189
medicine represents a multi-million

846
00:40:40,279 --> 00:40:37,380
dollar industry with interest groups

847
00:40:42,069 --> 00:40:40,289
ready to lobby for its expansion the

848
00:40:45,019 --> 00:40:42,079
vitamin industry is a good example

849
00:40:47,059 --> 00:40:45,029
putting it all into perspective the

850
00:40:50,569 --> 00:40:47,069
laetrile industry in the United States

851
00:40:54,129 --> 00:40:50,579
was estimated to be worth two billion

852
00:40:57,019 --> 00:40:54,139
dollars in California alone in 1981

853
00:41:00,399 --> 00:40:57,029
rivaling the heroin trade in that state

854
00:41:04,149 --> 00:41:00,409
little wonder that the modern-day nave

855
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:04,159
pursues the modern-day fool with such

856
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:10,390
dr. Richard Gordon is a family doctor

857
00:41:14,410 --> 00:41:12,230
and member of the Australian skeptics

858
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:14,420
National Committee this article is a

859
00:41:19,090 --> 00:41:16,490
version of a talk delivered at the

860
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:19,100
fourth annual skeptics convention held

861
00:41:26,350 --> 00:41:24,650
in Sydney during April 1988 and it's

862
00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:26,360
worth noting that dr. Richard Gordon

863
00:41:34,990 --> 00:41:31,540
went on to be for some time president of

864
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:35,000
Australian skeptic seek and this article

865
00:41:42,370 --> 00:41:38,210
once again can be found in the pages of

866
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:42,380
the skeptic magazine vol 8 number 2 and

867
00:42:02,140 --> 00:41:45,650
is available for you to view free online

868
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:02,150
a skeptics comm dot a you the skeptic

869
00:42:07,210 --> 00:42:04,250
magazine the journal from Australian

870
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:07,220
skeptics subscribe online to the world's

871
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:11,050
second oldest skeptical magazine visit

872
00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:14,390
WWF XCOM value and click the

873
00:42:21,790 --> 00:42:17,390
publication's link you can also find

874
00:42:24,940 --> 00:42:21,800
there over 30 years on back issues free

875
00:42:30,610 --> 00:42:24,950
to download the skeptic magazine from

876
00:42:30,620 --> 00:42:39,310
[Music]

877
00:42:43,110 --> 00:42:40,520
[Applause]

878
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:43,120
thank you for listening to the skeptic

879
00:42:47,490 --> 00:42:46,050
zone if my voice seems a little bit

880
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:47,500
flaky

881
00:42:53,130 --> 00:42:50,520
well I've guess I've just had a long day

882
00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:53,140
coming up next week I hope to bring you

883
00:42:58,170 --> 00:42:56,230
reports from Portland Oregon and Bend

884
00:43:00,060 --> 00:42:58,180
Oregon I'm flying up to visit my old

885
00:43:06,510 --> 00:43:00,070
friend Brian Dunning from the skeptoid

886
00:43:09,180 --> 00:43:06,520
podcast and I intend I hope to catch the

887
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:09,190
show of oh no Ross and Kerry who are

888
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:11,410
appearing in Portland Oregon next week

889
00:43:17,370 --> 00:43:14,290
and I will certainly bring you a report

890
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:17,380
from that event a big thank you to Trish

891
00:43:22,350 --> 00:43:20,410
Hann who stepped in to cover skeptics in

892
00:43:25,290 --> 00:43:22,360
the pub Thank You Trish sincerely I

893
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:25,300
really appreciate that and I'm thrilled

894
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,970
to have you come aboard as a reporter on

895
00:43:31,890 --> 00:43:29,920
the sceptic zone thank you to those

896
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:31,900
people who contribute with patreon or

897
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:34,210
PayPal and to those people recently who

898
00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:36,910
have chipped in or come on board with

899
00:43:44,090 --> 00:43:40,600
patreon I will be sending you your bag

900
00:43:47,490 --> 00:43:44,100
of goodies soon things are a little bit

901
00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:47,500
strange for me at the moment I'm not in

902
00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:50,380
Australia but as soon as I can find that

903
00:43:55,590 --> 00:43:52,900
out your goodies will be on the way I

904
00:43:59,040 --> 00:43:55,600
miss being in Sydney although I must

905
00:44:01,290 --> 00:43:59,050
admit quite candidly I must admit I do

906
00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:01,300
not miss the heat and the humidity at

907
00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:03,640
this time of the year I am enjoying the

908
00:44:08,430 --> 00:44:05,950
cooler weather and wow I'm gonna cop

909
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:08,440
some cooler weather next week in in

910
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:10,510
Oregon but for this week

911
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:12,160
this is Richard Saunders signing off

912
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:18,730
from the San Francisco Bay Area you've

913
00:44:23,150 --> 00:44:20,530
been listening to the skeptic zone

914
00:44:29,820 --> 00:44:23,160
podcast please visit our website at

915
00:44:33,350 --> 00:44:29,830
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

916
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:33,360
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

917
00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:36,010
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

918
00:44:41,580 --> 00:44:39,310
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

919
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:41,590
facebook page or leave a review on

920
00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:42,890
itunes

921
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:45,140
you can also support the sceptic zone

922
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:48,530
via patreon or PayPal the sceptic zone

923
00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:51,920
podcast is an independent production the

924
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:53,630
views and opinions expressed on the

925
00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:55,760
sceptic zone are not necessarily those

926
00:44:59,890 --> 00:44:58,100
of Australian skeptics or any other

927
00:45:10,360 --> 00:44:59,900
skeptical organization

928
00:45:19,850 --> 00:45:13,700
hmm no matter where I record in the

929
00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:19,860
world there are aircraft noises amazing

930
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:22,230
I'm nowhere near an airport I don't

931
00:45:27,710 --> 00:45:26,910
think good grief no wonder where that's

932
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:27,720
going

933
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:35,550
hard dice phones I've not forgotten you

934
00:45:38,730 --> 00:45:37,119
it's been a little while since we've

935
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:38,740
played the dice game nevertheless here

936
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:44,320
it is as I sit by a a cozy fireside with

937
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:47,260
a gas fire looks real well it is real

938
00:45:55,020 --> 00:45:51,010
it's a real fire bits guess not wood and

939
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:55,030
I have with me a tin sided die I want

940
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:56,890
you to use your psychic predicting power

941
00:46:01,859 --> 00:46:00,880
and see if you can predict what numbers

942
00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:01,869
are gonna come up I'm gonna roll it

943
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:05,560
three times three times are you

944
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:10,240
predicting first number is four the

945
00:46:18,750 --> 00:46:14,310
first number is four okay predict again

946
00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:18,760
from one to ten here we go second number

947
00:46:30,020 --> 00:46:22,990
is eight four and eight four and eight

948
00:46:32,450 --> 00:46:30,030
last number coming up is here we go ten

949
00:46:35,849 --> 00:46:32,460
there's a pattern there somewhere folks